Talk:Fishing

Layout
A bunch of data was imported from https://steamcommunity.com/app/599140/discussions/0/1696048879937426888/ trouble is tho that it doesn't specify day/night and can be either, so anything marked with "any" is suspicious.Neouni (talk) 16:59, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Data was filled in from an extraction of the Fishes internal game database. Values are in terms of a modifier though not a simple available not available so it requires a complete change of how the information is presented. Quadrapod (talk) 19:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Now your trying to teach people weighted chance with limited view on the dataset unless they combine them all back. I would atleast suggest putting it in order of importance. Neouni (talk) 08:14, 9 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I've gone over this page about three times now and I'm legitimately at a loss as to how to portray the information in a different way without overwhelming people with it. There are just a lot of factors. A glanceable possible/not possible on this page and then on the pages for the individual fish going into detail was the only solution I could come up with that actually seemed like it might work so I went for as much simplicity here as possible.  If the game wasn't in alpha I'd do something fancier but I also need to be sure the information is editable easily to keep it up to date.  Right now the tables are messy especially on the individual pages, I plan to break them up and get rid of redundant options but for filling them in it was easiest just to have all the info presented in a consistent order so I can read the fields off one monitor in the same order I enter them in the other.  I do one or two pages at a time to take a break between other work.  Once I'm done I'll go back over and try to make things a bit more sensible whatever that means. I'm all ears for other ways of organizing the information though.


 * I'm not the most adept at web design principles, and I'm kind of learning as I go, I'm an Electrical Engineer and most of my work is with micro-controllers not anything visual. This is a combinatoric problem though.  Because the system behind the fishing percentages is based on weights and averages each bait you choose, each different spot, everything changes the other available fish which changes the percentages.  So that's 5 locations, 2 times of day, 3 cast ranges 10 bait options, and 3 fishing rods and changing each of those factors has an effect of the percentage chance you'll catch a particular fish and we still might see more options added as the game comes along.  The reference you have is nice but just not accurate or maintainable once you start laying out more of the information. I see no way out of this other than teaching a weight system in some form.  Right now it's rough and unclear but I've tried to give this thought and I'm trying to be open to input.  Right now it's easy to see if it's possible to catch a fish somewhere and that's really the most factor in my eyes.  Ultimately with this few editors at the moment I feel like we're going to be seeing the wrong side of Conway's law in a few places and all we can do is try to adapt to those circumstances.  If you see me doing something stupid though tell me, I'm pretty open to it.  I just don't see a better way here right now. Quadrapod (talk) 08:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Trouble is the dataset is analog, and your interpreting it as binary with yes, no, #error does not compute which becomes any Neouni (talk)
 * I agree, but at the time I couldn't think of a good way of organizing the information to make that apparent so I figured I'd just put it a layer deeper. Give a very basic gist in an overview and if people wanted to know more put it on the pages for individual fish, basically employ a layer of indirection. A layout like the one you've done here didn't even occur to me.   I like it though, it solves the problems I was having well and without the downside of my fix.  It's a good solution and I'm glad you thought of it.  I didn't understand what you had in mind when you first mentioned putting things in order of importance but its clear now.  Hopefully as I get a little more experienced at this kind of thing my implementations will be a little less hamfisted as well. Quadrapod (talk) 12:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Got an idea. Right now you've got it organized as Bait>Rods>Locations>Fish ...with a very concise location section, and a vast datasheet of available fish - it's not bad, but I'd argue not ideal either ...which your discourse thus far seems to acknowledge. What about Rods>Bait>Fish>Locations: a couple more columns for rods to help distinguish their individual importance, same bait layout, fish simplified - organized by value and provisions (why someone might want each), and a vastly expanded location. As each location is very different, and provides a different assortment of fish, with different chances, it might help if that was clearly laid out in sub-categories; one for each location. It'll certainly be longer overall, but likely with more helpful info (ex: The eel can indeed be found in the sea, though is much more abundant in the swamp). Dsurian (talk) 04:34, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty much finished with my update - hope y'all like it. If not, feel free to edit it. I might agree that there's more data there than the average player should likely be exposed to, but it's all relatively necessary info, not currently displayed anywhere else ...and this is arguably the best place to do so, especially in regards to each location. Dsurian (talk) 11:15, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Data Accuracy
Some of fishes aren't possible to get, maybe it's outdated, as 1.0+, the silver and gold crucian, and the gold lure too. JPBC (talk) 07:29, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Silver crucian caught on lake. JPBC (talk) 07:58, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeahhh ...as of 1.030, both the Silver Crucian and Gold Crucian are spawning as expected. Yes, the Gold Lure isn't currently available, but has been in the past, as it's in the game files and we have albeit-outdated data regarding it. Might need to be removed temporarily from the datasheet, but I'd argue it still belongs in the 'Bait' section. We'll no doubt keep updating, though... Dsurian (talk) 04:34, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I've gathered almost all rates, by time, location and day, directly from game, just need to finish it to release. Still some things to do as multiple quality can be gather wich same bait/rod/day/distance. JPBC (talk) 02:17, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Data Analysis
Finally got around to brute-forcing this. Collected ~v1.034, Confirmed v1.037 - Dsurian (talk) 11:15, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Night
Differences Only!

Posit

 * 1) Useless supplies; N/A
 * 2) Unnecessary supplies; simple fishing rod, lure with a gem, Anchovy, Gudgeon.
 * 3) A preferred spot for: Frog, Gudgeon, Tilapia, Perch.
 * 4) The only spot for: Silver crucian.
 * 5) Silver Crucian; requires nighttime - unique.

Questions

 * 1) Gudgeon vs. Tilapia - the day/night cycle causes a slight variance ...why?
 * Either the Gudgeon prefers the night, or the Tilapia prefers the day.
 * Gudgeon @Waterfall does not exhibit this preference.
 * Tilapia @Swamp does not exhibit this preference.

Night
Differences Only!

Posit

 * 1) Useless supplies; moth and butterfly.
 * 2) Unnecessary supplies; steel lure, Anchovy, Gudgeon.
 * 3) A preferred spot for: N/A
 * 4) The only spot for: Anchovy, Sardine, Tuna, Goldfish.
 * 5) Tuna; has a preference for daytime.
 * Proved through competition with Anchovy and Goldfish.
 * Salmon @Waterfall does not exhibit a day/night preference.


 * 1) Tuna; may have a preference for Anchovy, over Gudgeon - unique (see below).
 * Salmon @Waterfall does not exhibit a fish-bait preference.


 * 1) Salmon; may have a preference for gemmed lure, over steel (see below).
 * Confirmed @Waterfall vs Carp.


 * 1) Salmon; specifically likes maggot bait @Sea.
 * Maggot bait will be ignored @Waterfall.
 * Seems to guarantee Quality, as apposed to Quality.

Questions

 * 1) Eel - very different characteristics compared to @Swamp ...why?
 * Requires daytime, hates good rod.


 * 1) Tuna vs. Anchovy - a unique variance between sub-areas (mid vs far) ...why?
 * On par using Excellent rod during the night, most extreme with Good rod during the day.


 * 1) Tuna vs. Salmon - an incredibly complex duo that is proving a challenge to figure out.
 * Day/Night - Tuna has a preference for daytime.
 * Rod - Tuna prefers Good, Salmon prefers Excellent.
 * Lures - Salmon prefers gemmed @Waterfall, but doesn't stand up to Good rod penalty vs. Tuna.
 * Under such circumstance, steel lure also behaves strangely ...maybe Tuna prefers it?
 * Fish-bait - no preference by Salmon @Waterfall, so maybe Tuna prefers Anchovy?


 * 1) Salmon - takes a liking to maggot bait, while hating it @Waterfall ...why?
 * One of the few known instances of bait having an impact on the quality of high-tiered fish.

Night
Differences Only!

Posit

 * 1) Useless supplies; N/A
 * 2) Unnecessary supplies; simple fishing rod.
 * 3) A preferred spot for: Gudgeon, Sturgeon, Salmon.
 * 4) The only spot for: Carp.
 * 5) Perch; has a preference for daytime.
 * Proved through competition with Salmon and Carp.


 * 1) Bream; while a steel lure may be used, it doesn't seem to prefer it over maggot/'no bait'.
 * Confirmed @River vs Pike.


 * 1) Salmon; may have a preference for gemmed lure.
 * Conflict @Sea vs Tuna.
 * Lures may also guarantee Quality, as apposed to Quality.


 * 1) Sturgeon; may have a preference for lures in general.
 * Conflict @River vs Pike.

Questions

 * 1) Several minor unexplained oddities:
 * Bream - lacking interest in steel lure?
 * Sturgeon - prefers lures in general?
 * Salmon - prefers gemmed lure, over steel?

Night
No Differences.

Posit

 * 1) Useless supplies; Lure with a gem, steel lure, Anchovy, Gudgeon.
 * 2) Unnecessary supplies; simple fishing rod.
 * 3) A preferred spot for: Frog, Eel.
 * 4) The only spot for: N/A
 * 5) Frog; not hardly worth the time it takes to collect the required bait.
 * Easily purchased nearby from Clotho.


 * 1) Eel; may have a preference for higher-tier rods.
 * Proved through competition with Tilapia.
 * Conflict @Sea vs Sardine.

Questions

 * 1) Could the Eel belong in mid-tier, a apposed to low-tier?
 * Appears greater than Anchovy and Tilapia, other low-tiers.
 * Appears lesser than Sardine, a mid-tier.

Night
Differences Only!

Posit

 * 1) Useless supplies; N/A
 * 2) Unnecessary supplies; simple fishing rod.
 * 3) A preferred spot for: Bream.
 * 4) The only spot for: Pike, Gold crucian.
 * 5) Bream; prefers the maggot/'no bait', over the steel lure.
 * Confirmed @Waterfall vs Carp.


 * 1) Pike; has a preference for daytime.
 * Proved through competition with Bream and Sturgeon.
 * Bream has no day/night preference @Waterfall.
 * Sturgeon has no day/night preference @Waterfall.


 * 1) Pike; has a preference for gemmed lure, over steel.
 * Proved through competition with Sturgeon.


 * 1) Gold Crucian; has a preference for daytime.
 * Exceeds the Pike's same preference - unique.

Questions

 * 1) Pike vs. Sturgeon - another complex duo that is proving a challenge to figure out.
 * Day/Night - Pike has a preference for daytime.
 * Rod - Pike prefers Good, Sturgeon prefers Excellent.
 * Lures - The Pike prefers the gemmed lure, over steel ...making steel preferable for the Sturgeon.
 * Sturgeon prefers both lures slightly @Waterfall, though this may or may not apply here.
 * Fish-bait - no apparent preference by either, though still an unknown.


 * 1) Gold Crucian - obviously prefers the daytime, though how much more than the Pike?
 * If so, competition vs Pike during the night makes even less sense.

Summary
The primary reason for laying all this data out is to try and ascertain exactly what the characteristics might be for each fish, and the only way to do that is to analyze the variables that affect competition. The devs love their percentages (after researching effects and fertilizer), so it's not surprising to find more of the same through this analysis, but unfortunately at a much greater scale given the number of variables.

The known variables include rod-type, bait-type, and day/night. Thus, any sub-area where there's no activity (0% for all fish) or singular activity (100% for one fish) isn't much of a concern. If a single fish is at-all-tolerant of any combination, they'll have a 100% chance, thus any competition between two fish is likely a natural 50:50, or three at 33:33:33. Then, each fish has a sliding scale in regards to each variable, so the 'weight' of each scale during competition has an effect on the chances in regards to each fish in the same sub-area.

Example 1; take a surprisingly simple fish like the Silver crucian @Village. Immediately we see that the Day Chance = 0% while the Night Chance = >0?% ...likewise, for the Rods, Simple Chance = 0%, while Good/Excellent Chance = >0?% ...and for baits, both Lure Chance = >0?% while all other baits Chance = 0%. It's unknown what the actual percentages are since there's not competition - for all we know, it may prefer the Good Rod over the Excellent Rod significantly - but, as it lacks any competition, it doesn't really matter.

Example 2; this can get complicated fast, with a fish like the Perch, with no competition @Village, we can merely rule out the lures and 'no bait' as 0%. However, @Waterfall, regarding competition with the Salmon/Carp, there's a disparity between the Good/Excellent Rods and Day/Night, while there doesn't appear to be any variance between individual baits. The night appears to be evenly weighted, with the rods imposing a 60% total advantage/penalty, the Good favoring the Perch, and the Excellent favoring the Salmon/Carp, as expected. Interestingly, this is perfectly nullified during the day with the Excellent Rod, meaning that the Perch not only has a Daytime advantage, but it's also likely the same as the advantage/penalty of the rods, as the Salmon/Carp don't appear to exhibit a day/night preference. So, we can be relatively sure that the Perch gets a 60% bump in the daytime ...the question remains, which fish gets which piece of the 60% advantage/disadvantage with the rods ...could be that the Perch is getting a straight 60% dis/advantage between the two rods, or maybe 30% between the tiers of fish? Hard to say for sure...

Example 3; The most complicated are the two pairs; Pike vs Sturgeon @River, and Tuna vs. Salmon @Sea. They all thankfully ignore the simple rod, and only the Sturgeon is susceptible to the moth/butterfly. The Pike and Tuna both appear to prefer daytime by an unknown percentage, likely different between the two. The Pike/Tuna being mid-tier also favor the Good Rod, while the Sturgeon/Salmon being high-tier favor the Excellent Rod, pointedly also by unknown percentages. This leaves the bait: Regarding Pike vs Sturgeon, the Sturgeon appears to have a 20% advantage for both lures @Waterfall, while the Pike seems to favor the gem lure by a greater (unknown) percentage. Regarding the Tuna vs Salmon, the Salmon appears to favor the gem lure by 33% @Waterfall, and yet its not very clear vs Tuna ...perhaps the Tuna prefers the gem (and steel?) lure(s) as well? In addition, there's a unique disparity between the fish-bait; either the Tuna prefers Anchovy or the Salmon prefers the Gudgeon, the later being unlikely as it's not duplicated @Waterfall - yet, the reason for that could be due to the Perch sharing that same property with the Salmon, thus it evens out. It's hard to say for sure...

It's obviously extremely difficult to be sure about any of this, much less reduce it down to a factual percentage. Perhaps with future updates, they devs will make fishing less complex, or share some insight into the weights on each scale ...but I doubt it.

Mysteries

 * Tuna vs Salmon / Pike vs Sturgeon - too many variables to be sure about anything (see Ex.3 above).
 * Does the Tuna prefer either/both of the lures? - more than the Salmon?
 * Does the Gold Crucian like the daytime more than the Pike?
 * Salmon with Maggot = 100% \\// Salmon with lure = 100% - any other examples?
 * Eel @Sea - very different behavior compared to Swamp, with no explanation.
 * Anchovy vs Tuna - disparity between sub-areas, unknown reason, only known instance.
 * Bream - doesn't like Steel Lure as much as Maggot or 'No Bait', unknown reason.
 * Gudgeon vs Tilapia - disparity during the night, not duplicated elsewhere.

If anyone has any comments or additions to make in regards to anything in 'Data Analysis', feel free to comment below this line. Dsurian (talk) 07:16, 15 October 2018 (UTC) /Fin